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So it turns out that Rick Berman, Michael Piller and Paramount plagiarized (stole is such a harsh word) Babylon 5 producer J. Michael Staczynski's concept and turned it into Deep Space 9.
That being said, DS9's execution both technically and dramatically was far superior.
I used to consider the first season slow and boring but recently I reevaluated it. While there are indeed a few weak episodes ('The Storyteller' perhaps being my least favourite) it is nevertheless a vital part of the season, as most of it is concerned with world-building and setting up story-arcs. Indeed, each of the first couple of episodes following the Pilot is dedicated to one of the Main Characters.
DS9 is currently my fave TREK. Not perfect (nothing is) but superior to pretty much all others. But I want to rant a tiny bit. We are told explicitly the Ferengi culture is all about profit, Klingon about honor in war, Romulan about ruthless winning, Vulcan about self control through logic, etc. These are all explored in the franchise to various degrees. But the Bajorans--whose homeworld a series spent seven whole years as the virtual location of a series--never ever came so alive. We are told they are all about their religion--but even now I can tell you almost nothing about their religion other than they worship the Prophets (which is about as useful as understanding the Middle East by being told "they worship Allah" and nothing else). DS9 explored Cardassians and Ferengi superbly, while we got to know quite a lot more about the Romulans and Klingons (plus of course the Founders, the Vorta, the Jem'Hadar). But what can you genuinely tell me about the Bajorans or their religion? Did they believe in an afterlife? I know that answer for Ferengi and Klingons. How do Bajorans view family and marriage? Again, I know that about Ferengi, Klingons and Cardassians. Do they have a concept of sin or something similiar and if so what is it? Yet again, we know the answer regarding Ferengi, Klingons and Cardassians as well as Vulcans. These are the building blocs of a culture, of a world view. The only interesting detail we ever learned about the Bajorans is that they used to have a caste system just before the Cardassian invasion--and that they has a starfaring civilization a long, long time ago. Interesting hints to be sure, about whom we learned nothing more in seven years. As to their faith--the thing Bajorans were supposed to hold central to their entire lives--essentially nothing. What the hell is a Pah? I simply don't know. What did the Pah-Wraiths want? I know what the Shadows wanted on B5, what the Dominion wanted, what the Klingons and Cardassians and Ferengi want. I know pretty much why the Borg did what they did. But these super important Pah-Wraiths, the devils of the Bajoran religion? No idea. Except they hate the Prophets and Bajor for some reason. Why? No one even bothered asking this question! So it wasn't even presented as a mystery, one perhaps beyond our ken to comprehend! It was totally unexplored. The Prophets at least seemed alien but with some kind of strange agenda. They were cool. But Winn--a religious fanatic who functioned as a villain in the show over and over again. What was her ideology, other than personal power? What did she or Bereil or Kai Opaca believe in? These are three major religious figures among the Bajorans--two of them the equivalent of the Pope/Dalai Lama here on Earth. Yet what was their faith? I have no idea. Because in seven years the show never asked that question. Their faith was a general, generic, unspecific semi-mysticism, sort of maybe. BSG explored the religion of the Colonies and of the Cylons. We know about Klingon and Ferengi religious beliefs. Yes, this is in keeping with Gene Roddenberry's well-known total dismissal of religion as nothing but superstition--except that is not any kind of an excuse. JMS, who created B5 is an atheist, but he explored the religious beliefs of cultures in his show. George R.R.Martin is also an atheist, but different faiths in GAME OF THRONES certainly inform cultures and the people who belong to those cultures. At its best DS9 explored in dramatic (and sometimes comedic) fashion clashes of cultures, as well as internal conflicts of characters struggling with living up to their own ideals. This never happened with the Bajorans because there IS NO BAJORAN CULTURE. Nothing. Without that, you cannot have those kinds of stories. So when we see stories about Bajor, it is entirely generic or vague or totally uninformed by the characters involved being Bajoran. Kira's whole story arc, for example, never ever depended on anything unique to her being Bajoran. If she had been (for example) Trill or Acamarian or any other alien-species-of-the-week that happened to have undergone conquest by the Cardassians, nothing would be different. Now imagine how her story would have been different if she and her people were Klingon. Or Vulcan. Sorry for the length of this but it bothers me. Bothered me then and does now.
DS9 has been and always WILL be my favorite of the DS9 series for a multitude of reasons.
DS9 had elements of humanity and wrote a story about however noble and peaceful a civilization (or government) it WILL find itself at war at some point. The Dominion war was really gritty at times but it did display just what happens when a government focuses all of its funding for scientific or social programs, it will be woefully unprepared for any conflict. When the Dominion War did kick off in earnest the federation were loosing, badly. Entire fleets wiped out, millions of casualties and numerous core systems lost to Dominion Soldiers. The only thing that kept the federation alive (literally) was the intervention of the Prophets in keeping Bajor safe. This bought them time to cripple white production, destroy shipyards and ultimately bring the Romulans into the war (through a not very moral method of doing so)
earth is a flat plane covered by an impenetrable dome. the sun, moon, and stars are small and actually inside the dome. outside the dome is water. 'space' travel is a satanic lie intended to brainwash you into accepting the fallen angels as visitors from another 'planet' when they appear. but they were already here, trapped under the unbreakable dome
Quark and Garark were my absolute favorite characters in DS9. Tho it has my least favorite doctor. Bashir didn't do much for me and I felt Worf was hamfisted in and he felt eh, the whole series, but they gelled well enough with everyone else.
I hated how political the story it was (echoing your comments), but it really, really grew on me. The acting was spot on.
Sadly, the ending felt rushed to me, everything worked, eh.
I watched TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise when they were originally broadcast.
Loved them all but liked DS9 and Enterprise most.
A couple of years ago I set about watching them all again. As of today I have finished TNG and DS9, and I'm in season 4 of Voyager. So far once again DS9 is my favorite. I'm looking forward to Enterprise.
DS9 was a totally different series with story lines that almost didn't match the other Star Trek series. Most of the story took place aboard the space station itself. This little bit of everything including politics also made this story different. DS9 receives an A+++ as a result.
Always thought it was the closest to the original series best beat points. Kirk would have tried punching Q too!Can't wait for your review of Lost in Space that Netflix has released. Myself, I gave it up after the 4th episode.
Very excited for the new DS9 Documentary, I helped fund it and got my beloved deceased moms name in the credits. I love how much DS9 is having a revival right now. Do you play star trek online? June is the Ds9 "Victory is Life" expansion, and a lot of our beloved actors will be appearing in game. You should cover the game!
DS9 was a higher budget, but worse attempt at B5; nearly stealing the idea (if one looks up it's history.)
Surely it has it's moments, but it also has near entire seasons of episodic Trek. Compare that to B5, and it only has few espidoes which are purely standalone. Each season of B5 built upon itself, and had the same themes of war, religion and tolerance, in a much tighter, dramatic style. JMS was simply that good.
DS9 is the best Star Trek series in my opinion. But it totally ripped off Babylon 5. The creator of B5 first pitched his idea to Paramount which turned him down, but used his ideas in DS9. If you like DS9, then you definitely should watch Babylon 5.
I love all the treks but Ds9 is actually one of my least favourite star treks, half the characters were unlikable and badly acted and it didn't seem to get that good until after worf entered the show.
People say that sisko was this dark, cool and badass captain. I say if you want dark and badass then Picard in first contact, archer vs the xindi and Janeway against any powerful enemy would be a better choice.Conservatives and anti SJWs also like him because "it was about his ability as captain and he never brought up the colour of his skin" which would be great if it was actually true, sisko actually made his blackness an issue multiple times. If you want a black character that doesn't mention being black then that will be laforge, mayweather, tuvok and Ohura.
The dominion war was brilliant but most of the episodes had little or nothing to do with it. Garak and miles are probably my favourite characters of all star treks though.
If I had to choose the best star trek show, I would pick DS9. Granted, I don't believe in "best star trek", they are all great in their own ways, including Discovery (which to me is the closest in tone and realism to DS9 than any other trek). Man, I loved every episode of DS9 and can remember vividly watching some of the iconic episodes for the first time.
DS9 is the best ST and episodes eg In The Pale moonlight may be the best SF episode of any show ever. DS9 had dark moments and light moments one of the reasons for its greatness.
If you haven't seen it, B5 is at least as good overall.
Great commentary. I was one of those conservative TNG fans. I didn't like DS9,but eventually I gave it a chance and oh my god is it good. I like the slow pace in S1-2. Popular banter about show getting good only after introducing defiant, to me is kind of shallow. Post-occupation story arc at the beginning of the show is brilliant. Episode Duet is probably my favourite. And when you look at the whole show everything somehow comes full circle. It's a story about war. And a great one. It's like you said, TNG spinoff. It's like a prog rock concept album xD TNG is side A, DS9 being side B.
My only problem with DS9 was they stole the original idea from Babylon 5. It started the trend of a "War Arc". I do not know if it was planned from the 1st Session or just came about later. Now the "War Arc" is used when ideas are starting to run out of gas.
The best part about Quark's monologue in "Siege of AR-558" is that in a later scene, he realizes that truth about innate savagery also applies to him when Quark has to backshoot a Jem'Hadar soldier and in that scene - there are no words. It's all in Shimerman's eyes.
This line Quark says was the moment I realize that DS9 my favorite StarTrek show was not StarTrek... Because one of the points of StarTrek is human are now evolve beyond the flaw Quark mention and here we have normal human from 20 century. (Still my favorite sci-fi show) And Dumar was the character who grew up on me the most for the exact reason you mention. Thank for this awesome review!
Why was this show, so hard to accept at first, from so many? Was it, the network pseudo stealing Babylon creator premise, black Commander/Captain, format change, scale, or lack of major Gene Roddenberry involvement? Sadly, my own community has shown little respect, understanding, and celebration of this masterpiece, despite Mr. Avery Brooks. Funny tho, race was the last thing I cared about watching. I watched with my father, him filling me in on the history of the actors behind the characters. Old school, hard working, mostly Broadway performers. Not to ramble, but this show stands for education, seeking knowledge, history, love, hate, trust, honor, integrity, class. Being a fan of DS9, makes you FEEL superior in taste and quality. As if you made the one single greatest choice in life, by joining this cast, and taking the journey. What a ride.
DS9 was absolutely fantastic, but I personally hated the very last season. The conflict between the pah wraiths and the prophets taking center stage left a bad taste in my mouth, and Sisko basically being a prophet's kid was dumb. It was dumb that he dropped fucking everything to run off with the prophets at the end, including a wife he'd just married a few episodes prior, and a son he'd had the experience of watching his life fall apart over his disappearance in another timeline. All of that, and the very black and white nature of the pah wraith and the prophets' struggle felt like a big "fuck you" to everything that made the series so great in the earlier seasons.
On top of that, I personally found Ezri Dax to be an absolutely unbearable character. They should have killed off the symbiont with Jadzia. Too many of the B plots in the last season were spent fleshing out this character I cared nothing about who just so happened to be the replacement for one I adored.
TNG and Voyager were really spotty at times, but they both at least had fantastic endings. All Good Things... was perfection.
Also Garak is the best character in the franchise, just sayin'.
DS9 was fucking weak. When ot launched the show was supposed to be about the crew rough-necking it with crappy tech (cardassian). The show eeked along with sub-par plots and weak character development. Then they added Worf and over-wrote the last 4 seasons. The show became the opposite of what it was intended to be... they way over-compensated with all aspects of the show which yes made it better but it also 'overcooked' it. Any scenes involving phaser battles with the Jem Hadar were cringy AF. The over-acting never went away in DS9 unlike TNG and Voyager. DS9 is overacted in all 7 seasons and the ending was terrible.... The Jem Hadar Armada just disappeared thanks profits after a full season of build-up.... terribly written conclusions to numerous half-written single-episode plots. It jumped the shark after DS9 took out the Klingon attack like it was the fucking deathstar. Fuck you Terry Farrell for bailing on the show. Dax shoulda been killed off... the replacement Dax was a terrible character. Grow some balls Jake or get the fuck off the show what good are you?
I can't say DS9 is better than TOS or TNG. I feel like each of these shows did something the best. What I can say is that DS9 did what I usually prefer in TV shows. Serialized, ongoing stories, a strong focus on evolving characters and a well developed lore. Because of this, I often lean towards thinking DS9 is my "favorite". But again, I really can't say that. I think TOS had the best character dynamic and TNG did the episodic formula the best. And if I'm really being honest, my favorite part of the whole series is movies 1-6.
Ds9 the trek downgrade of B5.. having said that it's still far better then most of next generation and all of Voyager. There were some likeable characters and it was kind of nice seeing Avery Brooks get to smile from time to time unlike his previous character of hawk. Oh and punching Q almost worth the whole series.
DS9 was good, but not a patch on TNG - DS9's writing was more consistently of a higher quality, but it never reaches the same heights as TNG. Also it was too much of a departure from the values of Trek. Having said that, it is probably my second favourite show in the franchise.
If only Brooks could act, though...
The first time I saw an episode of Deep Space Nine, it was the episode that was all about a Vulcan being completely unlike any Vulcan ever by getting some sort of perverse pleasure out of showing he was better than Sisko at baseball, and Sisko having the self control of a toddler and letting himself get completely bent out of shape by being beaten at a game. I avoided watching it again for years after that. Eventually I tried watching the show from the beginning and found it was mostly very good. But whoever wrote that baseball episode should be deeply ashamed of themselves!
I like DS9 quite a bit, even though it's a pale copy of Babylon 5. B5 was great enough that even a pale copy was very good in it's own right. The mixing of B5's universe into the Star Trek universe worked much better than it had any right to.
Sleep Space Nine. Soap opera in space. Out of all the DS9 episodes I've seen, none of them have been interesting. DS9 was a departure from the Star Trek style. Even the sets looked nothing like Star Trek. I also found it quite pretentious for a show that didn't involve anyone or anything important. The characters were all lame (except Garak and Quark), and the show even needed TNG characters to help carry it. DS9 also ruined said characters in the process, basically making Worf bisexual. O'Brien wasn't that interesting to begin with, so not much harm there. Q was ruined. Turned into a joke. Even Lwaxana Troi's annoying character got worse. And let's examine the "arcs". Wormhole worshipers, an intergalactic war we never see any consequences of, occasionally interrupted by alternate reality DS9. This show was a really bad joke, and was the WORST Star Trek of them all (not counting Enterprise or Discovery which I consider non-canon).
Ds9 was different, imo, than any other star trek series for the sole reason of it being on a station. Unlike ship life, where duty is held as a constant, fratranizing was a minimum, and life was routine. On the station, it was different. Rules were less strictly regulated. Life was more relaxed. Staff had relationships with visitors to the station, and seeing as there was a constant flow of visitors, it happoned alot. I also liked how they showed something the rest hadn't. War. We see what the federation does when threatened, more than just a single conflict.
DS9 was without a doubt the best Trek show. The original series was good but didn't last very long. TNG was way to candy coated for my taste. Everything was happy and shiny and Federation values ruled the day. YEESH!!!!!. DS9 was in many ways the anti-Trek Star Trek show. It didn't show the Federation as the benevolent do gooders of the universe. It showed flaws and it's characters didn't always fall back on the prime directive as an easy way to get out of a problem. The characters were far more developed than those in TNG were. Garack and Quark were my two favorite Trek Characters of all time because they weren't the typical cardboard cutout Trek characters that were in every Trek show before it. Both of these guys would turn on you in a second if it was in their best interest to do so. DS9 still comes on in syndication where I live and I watch it every night.
4:07 Also might be modeled after Erich Honecker (east Germany politician/head of state)
Famous quote (when his oppressive regime was about to end): _"But I do love you all"_
for details about Honecker see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Honecker
(I'm not writing the details down, and hope that page is fairly accurate)
I always felt that the slower start to DS9 was a good thing. It allowed for more growth potential for the characters as they learned more about themselves and their place in the universe.For example Picard is basically the same character from ep.1 season 1 as he is through the end of TNG, while Sisko goes from a man lost and thinking of leaving starfleet and VERY uncomfortable with his roll as the Emissary to embracing all of it and being one of the strongest characters in all of Star Trek.
Gene Roddenberry (hope I spelled it right) probably wouldn't have liked the series all that much; hell Majel Roddenberry (Genes Widow) had said, more then once, that Gene would have despised the Dominion war arc.
You forgot the character Morn/Mourn, a background character seen mainly in the 1st few seasons, but showed up in later ones once or twice. The joke/conceit with that character was that you never heard him say one word throughout the series entire run, but off camera the characters would say that he'd "never shut up", or just as you'd see him FINALLY talk, it would switch to another scene/set of characters doing something else. It was a great bit, & the show did it successfully for the entire run.
Razorfirst/The Rageaholic has you covered on the depth side ... and by depth, I mean twenty minutes devoted to each and every episode of DS9. (As of writing this, he's still in S1 with the most recent episode being "The Forsaken", which actually gave some, dare I say, empathy to an irritating and grating character from a past programme.)
Because of this and a subscription to Amazon Prime (Christmas gift from mum and da), I did a hardcore binge of DS9. I had seen about three seasons or so when it originally aired but then fell out of it (not due to the show's quality, far from it). I knew in very general terms what happened at key moments and thus there weren't too many surprises. But I definitely wanted to see how we got there ... and boy was I impressed.
I love DS9 for pretty much the same reasons you stated. As you said, everyone in it was "finding their place in the universe". And because of this, there are all interesting people. Some I like more than others but I don't think there's a "bad" (bad in the sense of underdeveloped or weaker) chap in the bunch. From the standpoint of craft, this was definitely a writers' show *and* an actors' show as evidenced by the complex storytelling from the former and performance range from the latter. As this was probably the ST series that had the most encounters with the "Mirror universe" as well as high number of holosuite stories or time travel instances, I could see it was an excuse for the regular cast to "try out different roles". In a way, this paved the way for other programmes known for their writing and acting such as Boardwalk Empire and Breaking Bad.
I've seen it said that this iteration of DS9 was the one that anticipated a post 9/11 world long before its catalyst could even be realised, let alone experienced. In fact, one of the best assessments of the Federation's big problem (which served as a beautiful setup for future conflicts) and it's delivered brilliantly and angrily by then Cmdr. Sisko in "The Maquis, Part II":
"Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth-on Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people-angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not.".
DS9, I think, is the one time in the ST universe where you have moments of self-awareness from Federation citizens and Starfleet officers that *maybe* - just *maybe* - we are worse than the problems we try to solve.
Finally, you brought up the Bajorian politics and the like ... I think it was a great world building idea to know who these people are, where they've gone and what they've been through. It's another way to bring out all of those characteristics that make the programme so remembered and highly regarded. In a way, I see the stuff involving Bajor as a great analogue for nations and cultures shaking off oppressive governments (think eastern Europe or pockets of Asia and Africa) much like how the Federation and the Klingons served as an analogue for the Cold War.
What made Quark's critique on AR-558 so profound is that it was/is very much applicable to real life. That is how we are. Let the masses lose the creature comforts we're accustomed to. There will be blood. Civilization is only nine meals away from anarchy.
DS9 "AR-558" and TNG's "Drumhead" are my favorite Trek episodes. So many things in those two episodes apply to the real world; the kinds of things that make you stop and think about the real world dilemmas humanity has to grapple with.
I think everything you say about DS9 is true and valid. The problem is that is every aspect that you discuss, DS9 was overshadowed by Babylon 5. At the time, I only had so much time and, given the choice between the two, I watched B5. I caught the fist couple of seasons of DS9, but only a few of the later episodes. Maybe I will catch up on it on Netflix. This is the 21st century after all.
I'm what they call a semi track E I guess I like these face 9 and I I thought next generation was good the discovery situation I think stinks and all but the real question is on my mind and that is the rumor true that Deep Space Nine is coming back in 2019 and the guy who played on Harry Potter the red headed kid that was his name of Weasley or whatever it's called it's going to be the Sun or the nephew of the engineer that once was there if anyone has any information about this could you just scream it out I would really appreciate it it sounds pretty good so if anyone heard about this or you know please tell me if it's true or not cuz I tell you I really love the series and I would like to see how to go bring back the captain alright then thanks bye
I'm a huge fan of DS9, it portrays the grittier side of the Federation love fleet, and Sisko is definitely the best Capt of the lot. I'm also a fan of Babylon 5, many hated it, but it was gritty and that made it interesting, plus the special effects of course.
I can't remember the title, but I think my favorite episode is probably the one where one of dukat's subordinates pretends to be him to stand trial for his crimes during the war... the episode had a lot of heart, even if it was a bit blunt in places, and it helped flesh out Kira's character arc by making her question her hatred of the Cardassians
Odo was never loyal to the Federation. He believed in justice. His conflict was between his commitment to his principle of justice and his desire to unite with his people. The Federation didn't enter into this calculation, particularly since Odo was a Bajoran officer, not a Federation citizen.
DS9 has pretty much no one dimensional characters it's like the star trek version of game of thrones or the wire except it came out way before those shows at a time when shows with deep characters and story arcs didn't really exist. Even tng which i love has many atypical characters in it as opposed to the often ambiguous and more realistic characters of ds9. Great review btw!
DS9 underrated and overshadowed by TNG?! You are one of the very few people who has described the series as being perceived as such. Once I heard somebody say that DS9 was ok, but overall they only liked TOS and another time I heard somebody say that DS9 was too political and religion oriented. Other than those two people, anyone I ever heard talk about or talk to about DS9 liked it, at worst, and like me, thought it was the best overall - even over TNG.
The only real problem was deciding how to describe Picard as an awesome captain while describing DS9 as the best in the series, but then trying to figure out how to give the Sisko his praise for being bad ass as well. Going over each DS9 episode was the whole reason I subbed to Raz0rfist's channel too, lol.
Anyway, I am subbed to your main channel Dave. This video just popped up in my recommended feed, so discussing DS9 has just given me the reason to check out your other channel. DS9 is that powerful! In the pale moonlight I shall now check out this channel ;)